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Tile Lippage - What should be expected?

aheider
7 år sedan
Is this acceptable? We are unhappy with the amount of lippage found on almost every tile, but there are only a few that don't meet the standard 1/32". The rest of the tiles are just darn close to it, without going over. Our installers agreed to pull up the ones not meeting industry standards, but we are stuck with the rest being very uneven. Just not enough to go beyond the 1/32" mark. Are we being too picky? The tile is porcelain, has rectified edges, and almost no warping. I just feel the installers could have/should have done a better job.
Utvalt svar
  • PRO
    Cinar Interiors, Inc.
    7 år sedan
    Ändrades senast: 7 år sedan

    Being that the tile is rectified (as stated above in your post) you can get 1/16" grout joints. Your installers should have used proper spacers when laying the floor. This type of spacer ensures no lippage throughout the entire floor.


    Unfortunately the install you're dealing with would be considered within tolerance. Would be great if the installer is willing to work with you but I wouldn't keep your fingers crossed.

    Kommentarer (38)

    • User
      7 år sedan

      Grout lines are too small to minimize lippage. What setting material was used?

    • aheider
      Författare
      7 år sedan
      A 1/8" grout line was used (as suggested by the installers). They used a thinset material when installing.
    • User
      7 år sedan

      Should be 3/16 and a medium bedding mortar.

    • PRO
      Joseph Corlett, LLC
      7 år sedan

      I'm skeptical that the tile aren't warped. This wood look stuff is notorious for lippage.

    • tconwell61
      7 år sedan
      Ändrades senast: 7 år sedan

      I just had 20"X 20" ceramic tile installed on my 20 year old foundation. my lippage is like yours. i have places where there are 3 different levels in one corner. I had 1/8" grout done. Nothing was said to me about any problems that could occur with 20 inch tiles. i see that the lippage problem is not only 20" tiles. my contractor said that the tiles have a inherant warpage and that it is normal to have 1/16th inch lippage anywhere and everywhere. he also agreed to reset some tiles. I found out that the " industry standards" like ANSI A-3.3.7, are volantrary standards for the contractor in Arizona. the mandated standards are the Registrar of contractors standards which are vague at best. Turns out that we as consumers and customers are expected to know what to expect and know the standards before we sign the contract. We cant Trust the contractor to live up to his or her word or promises, or to be given the basic possible problems that might be encountered with our uneducated choices. The oniss is on us to Know all the questions to ask and somehow ensure that they are held to what they say. Remember that the contractor only has to produce the minimum required by the governing body, no matter what the "industry standard" is.

      Sorry for my negative outlook, i have only just begun the fight!

      Todd

    • tconwell61
      7 år sedan

      that is what I figured....What does rectified edges mean? thank you..

    • PRO
      Diana Bier Interiors, LLC
      7 år sedan

      A rectified edge means that the edges of the tiles are perfect right angles, allowing a very small grout line.

    • tconwell61
      7 år sedan

      I spoke to the Registrar of Contractors here in AZ and he informed me that anything more than 1/32" is not ok. he said he uses a credit card to verify thickness of lippage. I have checked many of my "unsatisfactory" joints and so far its about 75% contractor/25% homeowner. I was surprised that most of the high spots are less than or equal to 1/32" of an inch. It still looks and feels bad, but it is within the minimum requirements....you would think though, that for $11,000.00 they would want to do better than minimum standards............

      The Az Registrar of Contractors has a program called the Building Confidence
      Program, where an inspector will come look at the job and advise if right , wrong, or whatever. Then you decide if you want to file a formal complaint.

    • chiflipper
      7 år sedan

      I have NO lippage...none. 8 x 48 inch porcelain planks laid with the technique shown by Cinar Interiors. The prep work was extensive. I feel really bad for you and I hope you get some financial compensation. There is NO excuse for this crappy install.

    • PRO
      Skippack Tile & Stone
      7 år sedan

      Are you sure that the tiles are rectified? In the first photo with the coin, I see slight rounded edges on the short tile sides.

    • PRO
      Joseph Corlett, LLC
      7 år sedan

      Cinar: Are those spacers going to bend a warped tile back into flat?

    • PRO
      Cinar Interiors, Inc.
      7 år sedan
      Ändrades senast: 7 år sedan

      Bend warped tile back into flat? Your tile has been set, there is no warping back. You are stuck with the floor until someone decides to tear up and replace. The spacers would have helped during installation of the tile to keep a flat level surface. Once setting materials have dried you can remove the top portion of the spacers revealing a clean flush surface of tile, ready to be grouted.

    • PRO
      Cinar Interiors, Inc.
      7 år sedan

      Diana Bier Interiors, LLC is correct about rectified meaning perfect right angles. Also the tiles should be the same dimension in size tile to tile, box to box to the T. Rectified tiles should not come warped from the manufacturer, their curing process is different from a standard non rectified tile. If you do come across any defect on a rectified tile, materials should be replaced at no cost to the consumer.
      Non rectified tiles will differ in size and thickness but I've never seen anything larger than 1/16" difference within 1 box. It's the cheap dollar store tile that you really have to pay attention to for defects.

    • tconwell61
      7 år sedan

      thank you all for your valuable input. More reasons the contractor should educate me on what is available, I.E. rectified or non-rectified tile and special spacers or regular cheap spacers. Also give education about all the what ifs that can happen with each choice of the process. Given the choice I would certainly have paid more for an almost perfect job. Like you said once in, it is forever in till you demo it out.

    • tconwell61
      7 år sedan

      Hey chiflipper, just curious how much more it cost you to get your perfect job? Just a percent figure is fine. I plan on showing this to my contractor and telling him, "this was an option that you could have offered me." "you know if I pay more then you make more profit on the additional product and labor, then we wouldn't be where we are today." I would have paid it!!!

    • User
      7 år sedan
      Ändrades senast: 7 år sedan

      Here, a proper LFT labor job is 1.5-2x the cost of a standard 12x12 with almost no subfloor prep. That is with prep, but not extraordinary prep. The quality materials from a trusted source take a $ jump too.

    • chiflipper
      7 år sedan
      Ändrades senast: 7 år sedan

      teconwell61

      My installer charged $8 per sq ft. which included the cement board underlayment and "floating" areas of the floor to obtain a level base (he used a 12 foot steel level). When he began laying he used a big piece of angled steel to ensure the rows were straight. (My home is 75 feet long.) He also used the "clip and wedge" method shown above. The entire job took two weeks because you can only lay a certain amount...then it has to "set up" before continuing. I had quite a bit of knowledge about tile in general (God bless www.johnbridge.com) and I researched large format tile issues thoroughly before hiring him. When I was satisfied that he knew more than I did, I hired him. I'm located in a very rural area of the Ozarks.

    • PRO
      Brickwood Builders, Inc.
      7 år sedan

      Rectified tiles can still be warped. ANY tile that is baked and dried out in the manufacturing process is subject to warping - regardless of price. Rectified only means that the sizes are the same and that the edges are straight. I have never seen a large format tile (other than natural stone) that was not warped to some degree. We are even seeing it with some 4x10 subway tiles. Putting spacers at the corners does not change the fact that the middle of the tile is the highest point and will create lippage. Lippage can be controlled somewhat by the tile setter, but may not be totally eliminated.

    • User
      7 år sedan

      Setting aside the look? That's a trip hazard. Hopefully, you haven't paid for this install yet, and/or have a Builder's Warranty.

      A nice time to chat about "when to pay". Contractors and subs- they all get in a big darned hurry to collect their money- job done, and where's my check?

      NEVER pay for any work until you are 100% satisfied.Period.

    • PRO
      Brickwood Builders, Inc.
      7 år sedan

      A good article.

      https://www.tcnatile.com/images/pdfs/Rectifying%20the%20Misconceptions%20Associated%20with%20Rectified%20Tile%20and%20Narrow%20Grout%20Joint%20Installations.pdf

    • tconwell61
      7 år sedan

      thanks for all the responses. Yes, I still owe half the balance. I am having a registrar inspector come and verify what is and what isn't up to minimum standard. then I will see what the contractor thinks he should do about it.

    • User
      7 år sedan
      Ändrades senast: 7 år sedan

      Todd, I'm sorry for the pain in the neck this is going to be, for you and your family. Ugh.. But I am heartened that there is an organized effort in your area that can help mediate and come to some resolution.

      My advice?

      This is your home, and you need the "sore" to heal. Sometimes, it requires "ripping off the bandage", and dealing with a bit of pain, as in the costs of the demo. Ask everybody you know for a reputable contractor who might not mind a BIG "win"- fixing this. You'll be a grateful reference he/she will be able to count on forever. Honestly? You just might find a contractor who is willing to meet you in the middle on the demo costs.

      This is one homeowner to another. Others who know AZ better can advise better on whether you should pursue a formal complaint.

      Good luck, and keep us posted.

    • tconwell61
      7 år sedan

      these pics didnt take earlier..last one is a piece of tile in groute line that sliced open my wifes rubber glove when she was trying to clean up groute haze. luckey she was wearing it.....


    • PRO
      Skippack Tile & Stone
      7 år sedan

      Hi tconwell61, please email me at info@skippacktile.com, thank you.

    • PRO
      American Tile & Sales Co
      7 år sedan

      Todd - you probably want to remove the pictures of your estimates you posted. There is some private financial information posted.

    • PRO
      Joseph Corlett, LLC
      7 år sedan

      You're lucky to get money back. Look at tiling over the existing.

    • User
      7 år sedan

      Ugh- In a bit of a rebuke of a pro here (Joseph Corlett) DO NOT tile over the existing. This will bring elevations up to a point where, if you ever needed, a cabinet etc cannot be replaced, without replacing ALL flooring.


    • Jean L
      7 år sedan

      You should remove the pics of the contract.

    • chiflipper
      7 år sedan

      I suggest you accept a full refund...and...they have to remove the existing tile from the premises (meaning they pay for the dumpster and dump fees). If he complains, tell him you're going to court "to be made whole" which would include a floor grinding to remove mastic. To find a good installer contact Arizona Tile in Tempe. or Dal Tile in Phoenix.

    • PRO
      Joseph Corlett, LLC
      7 år sedan

      "Ugh- In a bit of a rebuke of a pro here (Joseph Corlett) DO NOT tile over the existing. This will bring elevations up to a point where, if you ever needed, a cabinet etc cannot be replaced, without replacing ALL flooring."


      In context, I did not say to tile right over. I said to take a look at that as a possibility. I watched a fellow contractor take a beating and tear through structural floors while demolishing tile in a condo that didn't need to be done. Just like the uninformed think a countertop always needs to be removed to replace a sink, the uninformed always think tile must be demolished to be relaid. There are tradeoffs; they need to be weighed.

    • User
      7 år sedan

      Joseph, it's too bad that you have chosen to edit your original comment. You DID, in fact, advise this homeowner to "tile over". No editing, on your part, will make that go away

    • PRO
      Joseph Corlett, LLC
      7 år sedan

      902juanita:

      I did not edit my previous comment. I'll be polite and say you are mistaken.

    • tconwell61
      7 år sedan

      Hello all, thanks for telling me about the contract I posted. I deleted the message and photos. i will repost message here for reference...

      Hello, me again. The registrar came to my house and verified that this job is terrible and lippage is to high. Contractor tried to argue with him to no avail....Registrar said "yea, this looks like S..T after all said and done, contractor has offered to refund my deposit and for us to part ways. sounds great, right? free tile job..... Not so, because it is an unsatisfactory installation. I will have my $12,000.00 back, but am back to square one. I need to find a contractor, now will have to pay to demo entire bottom floor, and move all my belonging out again..... I still have the choice of filling a formal complaint with the registrar and see how that plays out. I think the contractor was advised to do this to satisfy the registrar that they have tried in good faith to remedy the situation. So I feel I am trapped into this deal.What do you think??? At least now I am educated enough to go at it again, right?

      Thanks again or all your input and advice....

      Todd

    • tconwell61
      7 år sedan
      Ändrades senast: 7 år sedan

      Thank you again for all your input and advice. You people are the best. I wish I would have known you before I started!!!!!

    • Justin7894
      5 år sedan

      Having a similar situation with tile flooring and a shower in a new construction home with a big production builder. How can I find if a similar quality inspector/registrar service is available in my area? I'm located in Virginia (Powhatan County). What can I search to find if this service is available? Many thanks!

    • chiflipper
      5 år sedan

      Justin, start by calling the Registrar of Contractors in your County / State. All contractors have a license issued by the State. You may also find direction from the Virginia Bar Association, just ask if they know which agency to contact. Arizona is one of the few States who are active in pursuing tile complaints, in part because easily 80% of AZ homes have tile floors. The quality contractors want the bad apples gone because the shoddy contractors employ marginally-skilled workmen (a huge percentage of whom are Illegal) and their ridiculously low bids are starving the good guys of jobs.

    • PRO
      Joseph Corlett, LLC
      5 år sedan
      Ändrades senast: 5 år sedan

      Not all contractors are required to be licensed by the state. Florida has some of the most strict contractor licensing laws, yet the tile trade remains exempt from licensing and permitting. As do countertops.

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